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The DDDB klan has seen more activity since I've been away over the last month, but it's still not exactly a hotbed of regular player availability. On the other hand the wider gaijin community seems to have diminished radically, if not virtually completely!

So it seems appropriate everyone reading this forum that also plays IMAGINE should pipe up and let everyone know you're out there listening in this thread.

And while your at it, please make a commitment to keep an eye on the playdate sticky thread. Come on people, let's be a community...

I enjoy his art on a mind opening level. I have no complaints about his stuff pre-SMT2 (SMT2 probably being his finest hour) ...I know he had something to do with Persona, but I just can't believe the man who did the final compositions for Persona (MIP) is the same man now producing this ridiculous SMT3 type stuff. He's like a guy flying a jumbo jet that never learned to how to take off or land. His stuff really starts pissing me off with the Devil Summoner games.

I guess maybe I would sum up the new style, as less a meeting of spiritual beings and magical creatures, and more like a saturday morning cartoon show full of lots of wacked out colourful things that would look good in plastic geared for the 7yo demo. A technically butchered eye sore with about 10 things more going on than any character composition should ever have, most of which could be classified as outlandish fetishes. Amusing for about a second, but not much longer. The End.

PS: I really like the core devils ok enough. Almost all the IMAGINE devils are fine by me. But when he goes trying to make something original or like a one off character/boss, its always bound to be a nightmare anymore. If you look at MakenX its probably the best example of this brand of bafoonery. Its kinda ok if its limited to one game and consistent like MakenX, and you assume the game is supposed to be some whacked experience you can only find in Japan that pushes the boundaries of madness on display. But its just fucked up to do to a Megaten game (though maybe less so the Persona series given complicated contextual arguments I won't go into) ...the general degradation of his compositions since SMT2 in general though does baffle and irritate me. Ultimately though, mild success generally does amount to a decline of ability in most cases.

[genius]

You're definently missing something more. You seem to have this unflinching cynicism towards JRPGs, well Atlus specifically as I don't know much of what you like, and it seems to distort your enjoyment for the parts you like about the genre. At least, that's what I see. I haven't seen much praise for Atlus' games from you at all, aside from those pseudo praises you give out on occasion. It's fine that you don't like them, but calling them unplayable? Unless you meant that you yourself could not sit down and play the games for more than five minutes, I get what you mean. But they are certainly are 'playable' by general standards.  

About this 'fetish' thing: I understand JRPGs are catered to a specific crowd, but I do not think it's that bad. Sure, there are variations all around that are within the bounds of its genre. You could say the same towards any genre, they all do things to cater to a specific person. In light of a better word, because fetish is just a horrible word period, they're more obscure. I wouldn't call them a fetish because, as I said before, any game in any genre would focus on what their game is supposed to be. Therefore, if you want to play a shooter because you desire a shooter specifically for enjoyment, isn't that a fetish too? Awareness of a genre doesn't have much to do with it, since technically all of these games fall under the fetish classification.

Persona 4(Otherwise my post would be way off-topic): I have faith that Atlus will give me an enjoyable game. They haven't let me down since I first got into the series. Each subsequent game I've played has been great, and I hold high hopes for this one. This murder/mystery take is also a very intriguing one, I'll enjoy seeing where they take it.

As far as Persona is concerned, the first games characters were kinda lame, but the atmosphere was pure genius. As for the rest of the series, and Megaten largely since, the descriptor I have to stick to it is really idiotic. I admit, calling the games unplayable, was perhaps rash... what I really meant was un-stomach-able I guess. I mostly blame Kazuma, who must regard himself as an infaliable demi-god by now to seriously pull all the shit out of his ass he does. The only technically good piece in his third Megaten book:

http://www.dokuganryu.com/scans/megaten/kanekoIII/563.jpg

I can't really pinpoint the man. My best guess is he completely fried his brains on drugs about three times in his career, and restarted virtually from scratch each time. He really needs an editor that understands the rudiments of composition.

I apologize for really going overboard. But ask, and you shall receive

editted: I say "career", but near as I can tell, he basically has done art for nearly every megaten video game ever, and little else. I'm pretty sure he's responsible for MT2 at least. The MT2 sprite art is actually much better than the manual art, which kaneko did I'm pretty sure now. His art then really seemed extremely amateurish, but unique. Honestly, I'm surprised anyone would hire him with that stuff. He probably was a friend of someones. But MT2 was a pretty major game nonetheless. I guess anime really trumped games back then. Fun fact, I think MT2 might be regarded as the most sophisticated Famicom cart musically.

editted: I think where we differ, is you're a japanese video game fan, and I'm an art fan. The problem is Megaten can skirt so dangerously close to serious art at times :)

I'm always looking for that moment where video games become real art. Not necessarily fine art, but somewhere beyond purely commercial art. Pop art maybe. If by pop art, you mean real artists speaking in the language of popular culture versus advertisers masquerading as concerned artists.

I still think I might really enjoy P3 (probably mostly because Kazuma is not involved), but sadly, P4 does look like a sub par effort released on the back of P3 for dubious financial motives.

The anime style looks incredibly generic by contemporary standards. I've probably only seen a handful of seconds combined of the P3 anime cutscenes on television, but I swear it looked like some of the most interesting anime art I've seen in years. Was that just choice cuts for the trailer, or how would you compare the two anime wise?

I should probably try youtube or something to see if I can find more of it.

I really despise the kind of anime used in P4 though. Its just the pinnacle of derivative or something. Its just lame, there I said it.

The music is just disappointing, cause it seems like Persona could be a really music driven game. There is much better music than this in japan. I wonder if it is produced in house or not, or if these are popular singles?

Did that singer just say hur?

editted: I dunno if its Persona really, but I'm really impressed with the opening P3 movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzHpCOPsVbo

I even think a heavy dose of rap in the score would've probably been the right fit for it if pulled off cleverly. Of course lyrics in a bgm you have to listen to every fight is a rule #1 no no!

--- I swear this anime is the best I've seen in more than a decade.

Me thinks Kazuma has developed a thick ankles and wrists fetish :)

editted: the older stuff is light years better???

aha: http://www.dokuganryu.com/scans/megaten/kanekoI/215.jpg

...maybe Kaneko was the original Megaten artist? Behold, the missing links:

No. 00210 - Fleuretty (Prototype)
No. 00211 - Jorogumo (Prototype)
No. 00212 - Crusader (Prototype)
No. 00213 - Indra (Prototype)
No. 00214 - Kerberos (Prototype)
No. 00215 - Illustration for PC Engine

ah, Pascal was almost playable :)

http://www.dokuganryu.com/scans/megaten/kanekoI/206.jpg

This trend will come full circle once gaijin otakus are making music for NA produced games with japanese lyrics. Perhaps only then will Japan realize the pure evil of it's ways!

The real shame for me with these games is I really dig a lot about the presentation. Especially the fights look pretty fun. But there is just so much going on that is so incredibly unbelievable production values or director's competence wise, I've no urge at all to play this trailer. Have JRPG's become just a fetish in the states or am I missing something more?

I didn't characterize anyone as an adherent of existentialism technically. Though you shouldn't describe something as "existential", as that is more or less an unnecessary political statement -- to which subjective is perfectly a suitable alternative right?

The whole point of good vs. bad, is it is one or the other regardless of whether who or what gets it. That's the whole premise behind the critic, even if they're grounded in a culture.

The time and place where a piece of art is exhibited can't change it's merit, though it can certainly change its reception radically.

There hasn't been a remotely playable Megaten game released by Atlus since the first Persona (haven't got around to DS:SH) in my book. I have hopes for the new Soul Hackers title though. Even though I've had it laying around here for ages ever since Imagine grabbed my interest.

It is kinda funny to see people fawning over these games.

Case in point:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1582330-1,00.html

I can't tell if this is supposed to be Pavlovian or some weird, didactic version of New Age-ism but...  If you're trying to say that art/music can be judged good or bad (and applicable to the whole) based on how the art in question is constructed, I can sort of see where you're coming from, but patterns themselves have only so much meaning as each individual puts into them;  Art, by definition, IS existential.  Though patterns can repeat and are necessarily mathematical and can appear the same to multiple individuals, that has nothing to do with the emotional responses a particular piece of music can induce and/or memories that are triggered.  Concepts can be experienced communally but each response is different in everyone and categorizing music as listenable/unlistenable really only applies to yourself.  Even if you're going for "intellectual understanding," it's still your own personal response.  Own up to it.  You can't pass it off to consensus unless you're against an "intellectual understanding," as you put it and for quantifying all of humanity's emotional responses (which is impossible and completely pointless).

There are both of these aspects to any form of expression. You're just refusing to admit the latter. Like existentialist, denying all meaning and existence itself. Which is precisely why existentialism as an -ism is not terribly popular you know.

I work with computers and numbers. I can program a computer to produce consistantly good or bad art. Its that simple. Sentimentality has nothing to do with such appraisal. Only sentimentality is subjective (by definition) ...the remainder of what art is, is purely objective.

You can see beauty in a cat, even though your not a tomcat. Most evolution selects based on purely objective/measurable qualifiers of beauty. Good music transcends time and the culture that produced it.

People all struggle with genetic and environmental predispositions. But ultimately as people mature, their minds begin to think more and more alike (optimally) -- That doesn't mean their personality disappears, it just means gaining access to an ever broader worldview and emotional maturity. Thats not to say a tragically mad man can't find a horribly produced piece of music or random sampling of caustic noise pleasurable, but it is a perversion of the senses only that could lead to such a state. Such is the face of true perversion, and don't kid yourself, the world is littered with it. This is why people dispise the music industry etcetera, and most people involved in producing movies and games really have no idea what they're doing, and our culture is suffering for it.

editted: Now that it springs to mind, I've half a mind to imagine some of the reason we're collectively wallowing in a sort of commercial dark age for art could have something to do with generations or art students being taught exclusively to these basic guidelines.

PS: Was the Mass Destruction song made for P3? Or taken from some jpop catalogue? Btw, has "mass destruction" ever been used outside of genocidal war circles? Maybe that is why it's particularly hilarious!

How's that for a trilogy :lurk:

Statements such as:

First of all, IT SUCKS

Always end in philosophical debate where I'm from. Even if I have to play Devil's Advocate.

There  I've picked at your first and last reposts now.

I'll have to try the creamy filling later I suppose  :)

Mickey/Mikey... harhar.  Jeewhiz you're thick sometimes.

For the record, that was my original guess, but you denied it, so I pushed on. For the record is my condescension emote Robin :program:

Hmm... it looks like you're still using the old updater (unless it changed back since the last time I was able to play about a month ago) ...one of the patches should've given you a different executible. Is there some reason you're using the old one still?

Make sure your date/time is set right on your computer. It looks like your browser can't find the page it is looking for there. I dunno what to say. Just make sure you completely uninstall Imagine before re-downloading/re-installing.

You can't find it locally, and I've already redownloaded the game twice. It still gives me the hashlist error.

You were able to play before correct?

Wow, those pics look like a depressing mix of really cool and really stupid. Can someone keep the stupid out of my cool please?