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Author Topic: What's in a title? I challenge you to a Nerd-off... (Read 12595 times)
yksehtniycul
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yksehtniycul says,
 « on: November 04, 2008, 02:47:09 AM »
How should we address Persona 2 in Japanese??

We can't use Innocent Sin to address P2 in English. I didn't realize it until now but that was just cooked up to correspond with "Eternal Punishment" it seems (I assumed it was at least a working title by Atlus USA) ...no offense to fan translators or tradition or anything, it's just not official -- and that's how we'll roll.

Then there is Tsumi and "Batsu". Wikipedia says this is meant to be a nod to Crime and Punishment... that seems like a dubious idea to me unless there is Atlus on record saying so? But I'm willing to go with it if need be. I like the ring of "Persona 2: Punishment" well enough, so that would leave "Persona 2: Crime"??

Well crime really doesn't work. Is "Sin" any better? So what about just going with Tsumi and "Batsu"? I realize people are used to this, but do we have furigana or anything else anywhere for Batsu? If we work from the Sin angle, Bachi definitely makes more sense... plus it reads Tsumi/Bachi, cute huh? If you go from the Crime angle, Batsu works.... So does that mean the question is do the games fill more like Crime and Punishment? Or Sin and Damnation or whatever? Which is which would favor Batsu vs. Bachi (assuming there is no existing pronunciation precident like a commercial or something -- which there very well could be)

At any rate from every angle it's a bit of a conundrum.


PS: I wonder how "Crime and Punishment" the novel's title is translated? And the ultimate question if there is no official answer... is this a pun and how should it be respected?



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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #1 on: November 04, 2008, 04:44:44 AM »
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/罪と罰_〜地球の継承者〜
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/罪と罰

Kinda solidifies the phrase つみとばつ at least. Still not clear to me if the titles are puns. Is Persona2 really an allegory of Crime and Punishment? What is next... War and Peace??



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Emilio Morales
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Emilio Morales says,
 « Reply #2 on: November 04, 2008, 09:18:27 AM »
I guess we should go with "Persona 2 Crime and Punishment" or the most common/logic "Persona 2 Sin x Punishment" that's how the fans know those games and that's how we should name them.  rolleyes


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yksehtniycul
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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #3 on: November 04, 2008, 03:07:47 PM »
I thought the fans knew them as Innocent Sin and Eternal Punishment. I'm ok with Tsumi/Batsu at this point I guess, though not using Japanese for indexing (especially in subtitles) is generally preferable.

Been a slow couple of days around here....



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Cho says,
 « Reply #4 on: November 04, 2008, 06:45:15 PM »
How should we address Persona 2 in Japanese??

We can't use Innocent Sin to address P2 in English. I didn't realize it until now but that was just cooked up to correspond with "Eternal Punishment" it seems (I assumed it was at least a working title by Atlus USA) ...no offense to fan translators or tradition or anything, it's just not official -- and that's how we'll roll.

But... the Japanese version has "Innocent Sin" written in English text on the cover of the game, the title screen, and the spine of the jewel case.



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yksehtniycul
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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #5 on: November 04, 2008, 07:22:16 PM »
How should we address Persona 2 in Japanese??

We can't use Innocent Sin to address P2 in English. I didn't realize it until now but that was just cooked up to correspond with "Eternal Punishment" it seems (I assumed it was at least a working title by Atlus USA) ...no offense to fan translators or tradition or anything, it's just not official -- and that's how we'll roll.

But... the Japanese version has "Innocent Sin" written in English text on the cover of the game, the title screen, and the spine of the jewel case.

Really? Once upon a time I had a copy, so guess "Innocent Sin" sunk in from there. Someone should definitely fix Wikipedia's Persona 2 page in that case.

What about Eternal Punishment btw? That is on the Batsu box right? To bad this site lacks a Persona 2 section... doesn't seem that far away ago.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 07:24:26 PM by yksehtniycul »


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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #6 on: November 04, 2008, 07:33:10 PM »
Yeah, I can just make them out in Ry's Megaten Hell sticky.

I'll just treat them like the "Be Your True Mind" moniker on the P1 title. Batsu seems fine, but in this case Bachi seems much more technically correct. Bachi is divine punishment for sin, Batsu is punishment for a crime of domestic law. The only reason I lean to Batsu other than anticipating backlash is because there is the precedent of "Crime and Punishment" pronounced Tsumi to Batsu. So at the least it appears to be a pun of sorts.

It's worth addressing in the Persona2 writeups if there ever are any at least. As is also for instance I've noticed lately, the Japanese seem to prefer Mashin over Majin in "Majin Tensei" and the Majin/Mashin race. Either is acceptable, however afaik. Majin definitely has a better ring to it in English. If I had to guess I'd say Majin is an informal/lazy pronunciation. Often in Japanese the lazy pronunciation is the correct way, however other times the pronunciations coexist, perhaps in this case because the word Mashin/Majin demands reverence.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 07:37:08 PM by yksehtniycul »


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Emilio Morales
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Emilio Morales says,
 « Reply #7 on: November 04, 2008, 07:47:35 PM »
What about Eternal Punishment btw? That is on the Batsu box right? To bad this site lacks a Persona 2 section... doesn't seem that far away ago.

It's the same as Innocent Sin, it says "Eternal Punishment" in the CD cover and title screen:








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yksehtniycul
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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #8 on: November 04, 2008, 08:01:33 PM »
Uh oh, this is the first time I've seen image hosters inlining advertisements ^

I've always wondered if one day all the image hosting services were planning to replace the images with advertisements confused


The Eternal Punishment is much more difficult to make out on the cover but I did find it eventually rainbow

Thanks for the detective work though. If you need some karma that is cool...

« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 08:04:58 PM by yksehtniycul »


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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #9 on: November 04, 2008, 08:06:46 PM »
Are you ever going to help the D3 more Emilio? You are the most logged user after all smokin


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Emilio Morales says,
 « Reply #10 on: November 04, 2008, 08:12:10 PM »
The Eternal Punishment is much more difficult to make out on the cover but I did find it eventually rainbow

Thanks for the detective work though. If you need some karma that is cool...

That would be cool!

Are you ever going to help the D3 more Emilio? You are the most logged user after all smokin

I want to help in the things I'm able to help, I guess I don't qualify to the tasks you're asking right now, you know, all those thing of migrate Tony pages and all that, I don't know too much of html so I rather help in the things I know I can help instead of making a big mess.  dazed



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yksehtniycul
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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #11 on: November 04, 2008, 09:39:29 PM »
Are you ever going to help the D3 more Emilio? You are the most logged user after all smokin

I want to help in the things I'm able to help, I guess I don't qualify to the tasks you're asking right now, you know, all those thing of migrate Tony pages and all that, I don't know too much of html so I rather help in the things I know I can help instead of making a big mess.  dazed

You don't need to know html, but there is one Wordpress thing I should probably disable first if you wanna help. Ry will probably make a tutorial for you if you think you can spare a some time.

Did you see the Demonary initiative post I made the other day? I hope there are still people who want a demonary...

http://www.digitaldevildb.com/bbs/index.php/topic,812.0.html

I understand if school or work or whatever has you in a bind, but otherwise you got no excuse tongue




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Emilio Morales
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Emilio Morales says,
 « Reply #12 on: November 04, 2008, 10:04:19 PM »
ok, if DevilRy is willing to help me with an "in depth tutorial" of whatever you need my help on, count me in. wink I also want to help with the demonary, since it was my first "real job". Maybe we can come up with a template that we can fill with the info I've gathered and then post it or upload it or whatever.

EDIT: Or if you want I can keep adding info to the demonary I have, and keep looking for images and brief descriptions of the demons.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 10:08:22 PM by Emilio Morales »


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DevilRy
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DevilRy says,
 « Reply #13 on: November 05, 2008, 05:43:30 PM »
Yeah, "Innocent Sin," and "Eternal Punishment," are part of the official Japanese titles.

-------

Migrating the pages isn't too spectacularly difficult, but it can be a bit confusing.  I probably won't get around to making a tutorial today, but definitely sometime this week.




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Kyousuke_Ichimaru
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Kyousuke_Ichimaru says,
 « Reply #14 on: December 04, 2008, 04:21:26 PM »
Persona 2: Sin + Punishment


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