[Guest]

I really am not putting my emotions into a thread on a forum. I'm stating facts. You said one thing, and did the other. By the way, you have a different perception of whats misinformed or misguided. Thus, when you try to correct people, you come across as an asshole. I'm just really tired of this 'post battle'. You won't understand me, I won't understand you. Might as well just end this so people, whoever does come as we probably scared them off with this bullshit, can talk about P3 Fes.

I wasn't correcting you. I was just providing an alternative perspective, which seemed needed, because of the heavy handed way you (and others) were conducting yourselves.

The way you assert  yourself and load your sentences is highly suggestive of emotional investment (Maybe that is just a superficial part of Emo culture -- which is something I don't begin to comprehend. However) It is an irresponsible way to present your thoughts via the internet, where many impressionable people from diverse backgrounds form their opinions. It naturally invites concerned people to even the playing field.

There isn't a ton to say about Fes, and I am an "asshole". Just for the record.

Yksehtniycul you need to calm down. You weren't pointing your finger at anyone and calling them a facist, but you were certainly alluding to some form of it being here.  

By the way, I never told you to do anything, I chose my avatar because it was a funny play on a very calm and reserved character. I, and even nightsavior, try to end this argument and you further it by trying to insult me because of an avatar I like? I think that says more about you than my avatar could ever say about me. Stop contradicting yourself, you keep on getting on my case for name calling or insulting or having a humorous avatar. You are the first one to say I suck Atlus' dick for saying piracy is wrong. You are the first one to insult me for something I took a stance on.  

And I honestly think telling someone not to take a 'personal stake' in an argument because you think you are so justly right is really just plain arrogance. That is something I already said, but you don't really seem to get where I'm coming from. You just stay on your viewpoint, and I'll understand both stances.

I think its all the pathos you bring to the table with every compounded utterance which begs the questions one could only dream of possessing the ample time to address. Bringing emotianal baggage into a public forum is bad form. Get a grip on your tongue, then maybe people would afford you the attention you both demand and in leave dismiss by.

I honestly don't have a dog here. I just have a natural impulse to correct misinformation and misguided emotional iconisms wherever I spy them.

offtopic: Btw, is this forum dead now? I thought it had become a sort of spiritual successor to past forums for an instant. But now it seems to've returned to a handful of holdout participants.

1. Everyone or at least a lot of people become pirates and get crap loads of free awesome stuff. Yeah, seems great!

2. The illegal distributors get credit to hand out pirated goods becoming filthy rich or at least pretty well off.

3. The company that made said product gets no money or rather not enough money to keep up production. They close shop and are unable to create future quality products.

4. People whine a company like Atlus is no more. Where is Persona 4 or the next Devil summoner? In the limbo of bankruptcy yet to be finished.

5. The people with the money that Atlus should have got are good at ripping but they ARE NOT good at programming. Thus even with their piles of cash they're not able to help crank out more games.

6. Of course a big company like SE or Disney is not going to be brought down by pirates. However a lot of companies that put out good entertainment are not nearly as big or well off so yes, they can be effected by piracy. I call that "common sense."

Piracy is a tool, it doesn't make a person greedy or selfish. That is up to the calibur of people.  Even if such a scenario was a technical and unescapible reality, which it could realistically be someday. Atlus would require benifactors to donate to their studios to keep the games coming. Which is actually the way art has been done for the glut of the existence of the human race. When you consciously choose to purchase a game, you are in essence making a donation to Atlus. You can't regulate morality. When a government tries to it only makes people bitter and more likely to take acts like piracy for granted. This has been the case ever since consumer tape recorders hit the scene for example. Industry shit itself over those too, but their profits only soared. Piracy is basically exposure. If the product is good, the people will embrace it. If it is not, piracy is a way of miitigating the false introduction of shotty commodities into the market place.

It is true with console games you can generally rent first. Consider theatrical releases though for example. Reviewers are great, but what if you are a sort of person with completely other values than reviewers.

Piracy also forces the industry business model to catch up with evolving technology. That is the problem the music industry is facing right now. People pirate music, not to be thrifty, but because it is so infinitely more convenient. The industry has to find new delivery mechanisms for music. They are trying, but the price they are asking is still at least three times too much, and the restrictions are absurd, so that industry will continue to grapple with piracy until it catches up with the realities of the 21st century.

Btw, these lengthy ideological posts are largely rhetorical. I enjoy the chance to think through these ethical dilemmas and am  happy to share as long as the question is posed. But please don't mistake observation for an invitation to spar over personal belief systems.

And just for the record, large questioonable institutions like Disney would be the most likely to faulter under the pressures of long term piracy, and are most likely where the heavy handed resistance to piracy originates.

I do think this topic is quite relevant to the thread btw, but I encourage anyone to not persue a personal stake in it.

Goodness, I never pointed the fascist finger at anybody.

It seems your avatar pretty much sums up the ceiling of any dialogue you choose to interject in.



Other than just now, did I ever address anyone personally? Cool your jets.

It can't be avoided in any country. But whatever, I'm done. I'm tired of coming here and thinking "What did he post this time."

Geez, I can see now why the other thread degenerated to the point of fascist name calling.

Its difficult to tell whether brand loyalty is simply being touted, or intrinsically fascist perspectives are being vocalized.

Modern "pirating" is a vital force in capitalism, as could be the more traditional variety. In developed nations it is a bulwark against fascism. In poor nations it is a means for people to elevate their minds and help spead competitive markets into their regions.

No one has suggested somehow depriving Atlus its dues. Everyone understands without money, no more games! Why sensationalize an already loaded argument in which you've presumably zero stock?

A simple search:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2005/130105fascistsymbols.htm

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Fasces

Intrinsically fascism is probably not even necessarily a good or bad thing, but know your p's and q's. Use your head or lose it.

Discussing "pirating" and noncorporeal products in the same breath is pretty absurd. Nevertheless, the closest I've ever personally come to "pirating" a video game is downloading GBA roms. I just don't do portables, but you can call that an excuse if you like.  

When you are buying a game, as far as any kind of realistic capitalism is concerned, you are buying a box, manual, and medium etc (a game isn't capital)

Piracy and hackers are a vital part of any kind of true market driven capitalism. Blindly denouncing "piracy" and exalting publishers to the level of saints makes you a bad consumer, which is anti-capitalist, which is anti-american if you want to be so pejoratively polemical.

A game is a virtual commodity. Well the version of the game you can download that is. P2P is no different than the public library system (except that it avoids serious realities such as fuel and floorspace)

A publisher with a favorable fanbase like Atlus has nothing to fear and can only gain. Only formless and abusive entities need fret -- video game wise you have your EAs and SquareEnixes etc.

[I]

No, you just don't want to take risks when buying games, which could possibly speak more about you, but who knows?. Then you cover it up by pirating and trying to justify pirating when confronted about it. If you didn't buy a US region PS2, then I don't really know what to say. That was just a bad idea, if you actually live in the US. You have a real skewed way of looking at things. Regardless, import the game or whatever, I just don't really care anymore and won't really respond to the thread. This will just turn into another useless argument where someone doesn't realize they're wrong.

Mine was only a vane attempt to persuade against being so quick to judge people whom nothing is known, painting broad generalizations which only serve to muck up legitimate conversations. Why wouold I want a US region PS2?

Just because I'm against piracy of games, doesn't mean I blow Atlus' localization team's dick.

I highly doubt that pirating a game can't be harmful in anyway. If you can't afford it, or don't want to give 50$ for it, then you should wait till you have enough cash or you shouldn't be playing it in the first place. There is no ethical reason for pirating, there is no mutualism going on. You are basically stealing the developing team's life by pirating it. They took their time to make this game, so pay for it god damn it. It's not the fact of 'if P3 blows' it's that once you've played the emulation, chances are you're not going to buy it. Every time I've bought a game I've liked it. It could be that I was lucky, or that I actually read about the concept of the game from the main site. Even if I didn't like it, there's always a 7 day return policy for opened items.

Man, justifing piracy. That's a real good one.

I don't own nor want a US region PS2. Mind your own business.

If I checked, its probably about the right window in which it is sometimes possible to import games for peanuts. But I don't want to give Atlus my money outright, because I suspect the game will be more retarded than not, and I don't want to encourage that. The market doesn't work without informed consumers.

Look at it this way... if I didn't pirate the game, Atlus would definately not be getting my money. If I do pirate it, Atlus might. If that isn't ethical, I don't know what is.


editted: The game can't likely be emulated even at half mast, and would require a monster PC to do so. Plus I don't play games in English, and why invest in a save game which could not be transferred to FES etc?

Funny how you talk about piracy of this game casually, yet turn around and show some form of sympathy for Europeans when they have to pay extra. Why don't they all just pirate it? Problem solved.

I've never even played a Megaten game on an emulator (Well I have played MajinTensei emulated for "fastforwarding")

There are many reasons for "pirating" which are benign, and even highly ethical reasons for doing so. For instance, if P3 really blows, you don't want to encourage Atlus to keep making games that way, and you don't want to blindly hand them your money without trying it out first.

It woud cost me about 20$ to dl a bittorrent that size. Where as you can probably rent the game for 4$. Hopefully I wouldn't need that bandwidth. Quit wasting decent peoples time by second guessing their judgment and morals. Now gently place your mouth back around AtlusUSA's...

There's so much content that even with another Aegis branch, which we don't really need because she plays an extremely pivotal role in the story and we get multiple facets of her personality and major development, it wouldn't really matter. I for one am satisfied with the fact that I played the game for 110 hours on my first play through, got 91% done on the compendium and only maxed out a few S-links. That alone justifies at least 2 more playthroughs to max out other S-links to see how everything else plays out. After that, another S-link and a couple of quirps here and there won't mean much.

Is it that people cannot be satisifed until they know they have everything in the game? Or is it just wanting for the sake of wanting something when you already have enough? I know that P3 is enough for me already, and am in no rush to get FES.

A lot of people who play these sorts of games are completists. Personally I tend to pickup a game like this and either put it down in 30mins, or play to 100% then move on to additions.


As for PAL, I'd assumed a significant portion of European porting was a matter of display resolution, since PAL can display about 20% more game I think. I'm not sure how "Swap Magic" works in that regard, but I intend to look into SM because that might be the way to play that P3 bittorrent. I was once referred to it for ripping PS2 memcards for emulator use. If I have to monkey with my PS2 physically to use it though, I'll likely opt out. As I recall it was just a disc. I wonder if you can just dl the iso, or if something must be bought. Whatever the case its on my todo list now!

Its a shame if NTSC games are always just blownup for PAL. Europeans deserve something for all that waiting and price hiking

I doubt it is possible to mod a NTSC console for PAL gameplay, the television resolutions are different and incompatible as far as I know. Unless the PAL units are just cheap hacks that postprocess NTSC output.

--AtlusUSA obviously doesn't care about the completeness of the game. If they knew about Festival etc, it should've been included as a second disc, if they didn't want to do another release.

I spoke only to dubbing in general. I haven't played P3. If I do I will have to import it. That costs a lot of money. So I'd rather try it out first. That torrent could be a way to do that. But I'm unfamiliar with ways to trick the PS2 without modding. It has been a fairly successful console in that respect.

As for lipsyncing. Obviously, the moment you are choosing dialog based on whether or not it matches lips speaking a foreign language, it should be easily understandible why that process produces particularly foul writing and voicing. Personally I don't mind dubbing in many instances, but I'd prefer lipsyncing to be a nonpriority, as said in traditional Honk Kong action flics.

Generally I prefer subtitles when watching something attentively, and dubbing when only watching casually. I like the TCM channel's policy of showing dubs during primetime, then subtitled encores later that night. I'm sure if you asked TCM, it would say its a matter of artistic integrity.

:rollers:

Yeah! I remember how that helped Innocent Sin get localized.

Seriously, buy the game... send them emails and encourage others to do the same. That's about the only thing we can do. I really believe they have already decided, but I'll continue to bug them about it until I get a definite no.

Was Innocent Sin localized?

I had to personally ask someone what the hell "FES" meant.

As for sub vs dub, it is and should be a circumstantial choice of course. However, in terms of artistic integrity, dubbing should always be the secondary priority. Which is what many people find objectionable.

A major, almost singular, complaint when addressing dubbing. Is often the greatest priority is lipsyncing the dialog. This results in tortured often unlistenible contortions of speech. The most popular Ghost in the Shell movie dub/sub job is an extreme example. Both jobs were orchestrated by the same localization operation. The subtitles are not simply the dubbing script with the original vocals, but are instead a quite literal translation of the original script. The result is the subtitle is a highly intelligent and accurate portrayal of a highly plausible vision of the evolution of modern technology. Where as the dub job, is contemptible by anyone remotely aware of the constraints of contemporary technology or how such devlopments are articulated by people in the know. Not to mention the dub is of general quality, which is regrettibly substandard. Of all the times I've seen this anime in the television listings, only once has it been aired as subtitled.

On the otherhand, the quality of Disney's handlings of Studio Ghibi's productions has been at least of significant calibur to warrant independent viewing along side the originals. Its just a matter of whether a localization effort regards the original work as art versus pure commodity.

Of course, Miyazaki's fair is typically more condusive to dubbing, due to the target audience and minimalistic approach to dialog.

In any case, if it must be insisted that Atlus[&USA] are deserving of your patronage and should be respected as prime artists, then that respect should follow that in the best of all possible worlds, a first priority to subbing would be more placable to all parties.

My general theory however, is by not providing the original vocals, AtlusUSA avoids paying residuals to the original voice talent. AtlusUSA could've removed the original voice files from the US pressings. But instead it appears that someone left them there, so that a simple hack would make their translation of the game available. Perhaps that is a gesture for posterity sake, or perhaps an under the table deal with Chinese parties.