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Author Topic: Giten Megami Tensei NSFWW (not safe for work or women!!) (Read 46906 times)
yksehtniycul
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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #15 on: September 30, 2008, 01:20:44 AM »
I don't mind poor artwork in a game. I do mind artwork I find intellectually offensive. I rather like the P3 guy's stuff... well not really, but compared to Kaneko it goes down easier. If anything his stuff probably suffers more from trying to be like Kaneko. Izanami was just fugly. If that's the best you can do for a final boss, it worries me that this stuff gets published. I think the industry on both sides of the Atlantic are basically fucked. I'm a sucker for any reviewer that basically tears every game that comes across them a new one. That's just the way I am about games these days.

Obviously Giten wasn't done on a Nocturne sized budget. It's still a game with more or less traditional Megaten mechanics none the less I presume. Compared to Famicom graphics, it doesn't really bother me. You just have to respect a game from the era it comes from. And for that era, that art is not at all bad. Though it would be considered fanart these days. Technically the art even does stuff you don't see in contemporary game artist's repertoires, and frankly it really isn't as bad as you think.

Everything is personal. But you were all like, this is Eroguro and Eroguro is bad, and I begged to differ.


So much for myspace I guess biggrin



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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #16 on: September 30, 2008, 01:30:45 AM »
Split... you can change the topic subject to something more appropriate if you prefer. Shocking Giten Revelations or whatever smokin

Put 18+ in the subject if you like.



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DevilRy
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DevilRy says,
 « Reply #17 on: September 30, 2008, 01:42:31 AM »
I didn't say eroguro was bad either, I just don't personally like it and view it as insultingly immature.  I only said as much.

To me, Soejima is the quintessential poseur.  His style is just so derivative, I struggle to equate it with Megaten (or Persona for that matter) at all, which in my view is/was an intensely original concept.  I tend to agree with you about the industry, but I don't think its necessarily that bad.  I actually tend to prefer retro games to new ones if my rather large Super Nintendo/original Famicom collection is any indication.

Yeah, derailed topics are fun.   smug  Myspace is like soooo five years ago anyways.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 01:53:50 AM by DevilRy »



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yksehtniycul
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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #18 on: September 30, 2008, 03:25:03 AM »
I just plopped Giten into my portable and had a play at it. The complex you begin in is unnecessarily large. However this time I managed to stumble across a VR trainer and try out the battle system. I actually gotta say this could be the most sophisticated traditional Megaten gameplay ever achieved. It's really good actually. I tried to take screenshots but something about the game playing in fullscreen mode or directx wouldn't accept the print screen event.

The fonts are generated by Windows, and with the game being so old the fonts get messed up a lot. And almost every character has extra pixels along the bottom. Probably like in those screenshots you found (the one that showed game text seemed to be having the same issues)

I think sprites use a directx texture filter, so even though they're low resolution the pixels are blurred into one another. This makes the sprites really ugly. They'd probably look better in a low resolution on a smaller display. This might be intentional on the games part, but on a modern display in fullscreen mode its so blurry when closest to the sprite it's like they're etheral beings.

My guess is the PC-98 game would be much better. It shouldn't have any filtering hardware support or font issues, and should be designed to play at a lower resolution.

If I could just figure out a way to force it to play in a window and figure out how to save my game I'd give it a serious play. Then probably wait for PC-98 version to finish it.


The game play itself is pretty cool. The dungeons are actual 3D. On a grid like virtually all Megaten. The rooms however are pretty much just cube mazes with six sided textures which save for doors and stairs are always the same as far as I can tell.

I'm not so sure the demon sprites used in the PC version are the same as the PC-98 version. The PC version look more drawn, while the PC-98 sprites as I recall from that sprite library were more pixel art Famicom style. My memory could just be foggy. Edited: I think actually the PC version is probably just a quick hack to try to make some money off the Windows market back then.


You have a lot of equip, and more stats to pump pts into than ever. Interesting ones at that. I'd list them if that screenshot had worked out. The stats are generally more practical than the old five abstract stat system. You get to assign 1pt per level but also get a fixed set of points. I think those might be distributed based on a choose-your-own-adventure style exam at the beginning of the game (along with your starting stats)


What's really interesting is the gameplay though. It looks like Devil Summoner sort of. But you can see the Devils in the rooms you're in. You can shoot them with a gun from 3 squares away if they're in your line of sight. As you probably could with magic as well. I used a mahajio stone I got from somewhere in the VR game and it cleared out a whole room of Devils. So magic/explosions hit around the squares too. You have a traditional party of six. And plenty of room to store devils. I only got to fight alone however. From two squares away you can do a melee attack. And from one square (facing the Devil) you can attack as well -- being closer might make the attack stronger, or might be required for some attacks. At this closest range the bottom half of the Devil is cutoff by the 6 slot party area on the bottom of the screen. I wish that somehow wasn't the case.


I can't say how totally balanced the gameplay is, but the basic system might be better than any traditional Megaten title honestly. Every piece of equip has a visual graphic, and there are at least as many equip types as in Megaten2, probably more.

I don't really mind the art style or theme, but the NPCs heads often come out pretty messed up. And you get the same NPC graphic no matter how close you get. All the sprites always face you. I'm not positive if DS1 worked that way, but it's easier to keep track of things at least. Also you can see NPC sprites from a distance.

The general thrust of hte character design is acceptable as far as I'm concerned.


Truthfully I think it's kind of interesting. I could program something like this in less than a week in my free time technically. It might even be fun to make a fan game based on it as a demo line. It kind of combines Megaten with King's Field, my too favs... only puts it on rails (I think that is the way the new PSP KF games work anyways) ...but it might even be fun to take it off the rails. Another funny coincidence is I think the company responsible, ASCII, even used to handle NA localization of early Fromsoftware titles including King's Field II.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 03:33:35 AM by yksehtniycul »


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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #19 on: September 30, 2008, 03:51:39 AM »
A sample of some images oddly stored in bmp format in the Giten disc image smokin


* npc.bmp (65.01 KB, 256x256 - viewed 1255 times.)

* wall06_0.bmp (65.01 KB, 256x256 - viewed 1147 times.)

* wall04_2.bmp (65.01 KB, 256x256 - viewed 1156 times.)

* wall00_0.bmp (65.01 KB, 256x256 - viewed 1145 times.)


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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #20 on: September 30, 2008, 05:04:43 AM »
He's only gotten better since the early Shin Megaten days.  I didn't think he was ambitious enough.  Now there's an almost draftsman's quality to what he does.  Everything is crisp and clean and, most importantly, not colored with markers.

I sort of missed this. Again, I'm not at all entirely convinced Kaneko does all of his pieces alone. He releases artbooks with his name on them, so you'd think he does. But this high gloss stuff, I think I've even seen pictures of other people working on this with illustrator type application suites. And just looking at the stuff and knowing what it takes to produce them, I don't believe one man could probably find the energy to do it. Especially not a moderately famous person... possibly a person locked away in a room without windows. I'm not saying he doesn't have the ability to do this stuff himself, or he doesn't pioneer all the techniques he uses / directs the production. But I have a feeling he still just basically does concepts and lines, then hands the whole thing off to others too fill everything in, and probably digitally tweak the lines afters capturing with ocr technology.

Hajime Sorayama really does formulaic fantasy stuff sorta like this -- and without computers afaik. But he's probably a huge nerd and doesn't have game deadlines to contend with. Kaneko realistically probably does very little of the actual man hours that go into the pieces a lot of people give him full credit for. Again, I can't make that claim with any absolute authority, but if I'd have to bet I'd say everyone of his high gloss pieces are poured over by a staff of handlers/post-processors. If anyone owns one of his "works" artbooks, if he had assistants, I'd think they'd be credited inside somewhere.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 11:34:05 PM by yksehtniycul »


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DevilRy
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DevilRy says,
 « Reply #21 on: October 01, 2008, 12:41:58 PM »
Quote
I sort of missed this. Again, I'm not at all entirely convinced Kaneko does all of his pieces alone. He releases artbooks with his name on them, so you'd think he does. But this high gloss stuff, I think I've even seen pictures of other people working on this with illustrator type application suites. And just looking at the stuff and knowing what it takes to produce them, I don't believe one man could probably find the energy to do it. Especially not a moderately famous person... possibly a person locked away in a room without windows. I'm not saying he doesn't have the ability to do this stuff himself, or he doesn't pioneer all the techniques he uses / directs the production. But I have a feeling he still just basically does concepts and lines, then hands the whole thing off to others too fill everything in, and probably digitally tweak the lines afters capturing with ocr technology.

Even if his work is accomplished by the efforts of multiple people it would hardly detract from it.  hearton




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yksehtniycul
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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #22 on: October 01, 2008, 02:33:41 PM »
To answer a past post (I somehow ended up on pg2)

I just think his stuff is either too bland or too over the top. You almost never see a just right piece. I think my judgment is objective enough. I have my own peculiar tastes, but I wouldn't let them get in the way of my judgment.

I think his insane Persona/DDSaga beasts are just random mish-mash with way too much thought into detail and none into the actual composition or context. I think many of his boss designs are just pulled out of someone's ass compartment. I think his portrayal of a demon realm is hardly convincing and rarely inspiring. He does have a Noire flare which I have a feeling is more what you identify with than anything in particular. Also I never like his human characters. They're completely unrelateable or believable... and I'd be embarrassed to be caught dead with any of them in public -- if that is worth anything!

If he'd just tone down the pretentiousness I'd dock him a lot of flack. But that doesn't mean I'd be satisfied. But see I'm into Megaten for the concept. You sometimes I think are primarily just into Kaneko.

Another thing is I think Kaneko overshadows Megaten itself too much. Sometimes you can't even tell which one people are really into. And since he hardly does any other game, it's ridiculously hard to separate the two.


I'd much prefer Megaten be more like the new Devil Man anime like in my avatar. Or for that matter like the original Megaten anime (ideally with Gegege/Urusei Yastura type comedic foils as well)

I like the David Lynch type stuff too, but I'd prefer it be quarantined to the Persona series. Most of all I just think anymore he's a highly technical hack.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 02:39:01 PM by yksehtniycul »


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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #23 on: October 01, 2008, 03:47:14 PM »
Who're we kidding? This thread isn't safe for anyone goodnight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrqdnp9BaDw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3bb4hR9hh4



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DevilRy says,
 « Reply #24 on: October 01, 2008, 07:45:51 PM »
I love Go Nagai, but Devilman was essentially Cutie Honey meets the Bible.  I have all 5 of the original manga and I've read it all the way through.  Like pretty much everything Nagai has ever done, it really is hackneyed in a lot of ways...  I mean most of the plot involves Akira and Ryo going back in time and righting famous historical wrongs (in the Devilman way I suppose; I.E. must kill evil ex-lover - not just Siren).  Don't get me wrong, I love me some Devilman, but it's not the paragon you think it is.  It typifies much of what you seem to object to about Kaneko's art.

I won't lie though, Kaneko did sell me on the series but I don't think that's a bad thing.  What I like about his stuff is the disregard for convention that almost no one in Japan's art world seems to be able to break free from.  Better yet, his stuff is still highly technical, a best of both worlds sort of thing.  Plus he injects quite a bit of modern fashions (which I suspect is what you are round-about objecting to) and keeps the Megaten series current, rather than the same old pastiche of itself being repeated ad nauseam.

I'm not sure why you seem so intent on ripping his stuff apart.  If I were you I'd focus on the main offender - Soejima.  That guy is fucking awful...  sick     

« Last Edit: October 01, 2008, 07:49:37 PM by DevilRy »



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yksehtniycul
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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #25 on: October 02, 2008, 01:20:26 AM »
I wasn't elevating DevilMan itself. I just offered the two extended sequences inside those links (the second starts later in) as an example of a fairly believable and compelling demon world. It's somewhat different in terms of Megaten, but my point is, it can be pulled off by artists. And often is quite well. Atlus Megaten games have always been disjointed in terms of a cohesive visual presentation. The only exception might be the original Persona, but I think that was probably accidental... plus too easy.

At any rate, I thought it was obvious those two links, but I apologize for not making more of their intention in the post. I woke up really sick yesterday and had been up several hours past my bedtime.

PS: I only know about as much as you can about Devilman from reading Wikipedia these days. I've also seen the two vhs cassettes from the late 80s but that's pretty well it.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 04:04:57 AM by yksehtniycul »


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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #26 on: October 02, 2008, 02:43:11 AM »
Plus he injects quite a bit of modern fashions (which I suspect is what you are round-about objecting to)
How can something be a "fashion" if no one actually dresses that way outside of 21st century teenage synchronized-dance music videos decked out by a recent NYC fashion institute graduate?

« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 02:46:01 AM by yksehtniycul »


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DevilRy says,
 « Reply #27 on: October 02, 2008, 02:59:45 AM »
How can something be a "fashion" if no one actually dresses that way outside of 21st century teenage synchronized-dance music videos decked out by a recent NYC fashion institute graduate?

Isamu and Chiaki's outfits are exactly the kind of thing I would see hipsters wearing walking around downtown Portland.  Same with Hitoshura's track suit costume.  DDS is supposed to be futuristic so that doesn't really apply.   Persona 2 I have to admit is a bit out there (esp. with Maya's erm, heartboob suit), but the late 90s were a weird time for fashion anyway.




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yksehtniycul says,
 « Reply #28 on: October 02, 2008, 03:43:41 AM »
When clothing begins to look like a "costume" you're stepping into strange territory smug


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DevilRy says,
 « Reply #29 on: October 02, 2008, 03:55:54 AM »
The only reason I used "costume," was to denote that Hitoshura had more than one outfit.  razz



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